Mary & Martha Talk Discernment, Prophecy & Protecting Your Faith Journey

Join twin sisters Mary and Martha for an honest, heartfelt conversation that starts with laughs about middle parts and matching jackets, then dives deep into faith, discernment, and navigating the prophetic movement. 

Drawing from decades of ministry experience, they discuss recent challenges facing major ministries, share personal stories about false prophecy and manipulation, and offer wisdom on protecting yourself and your family from spiritual deception. 

Whether you're a seasoned believer or new to faith, this candid discussion offers valuable insights on staying grounded in Scripture while remaining open to the Holy Spirit's leading.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Well, hi Martha. Hi, Mary.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

How you doing? You look gorgeous. Well, thank you so much. So do you. Thank you. I I did something different today for this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yes, I actually can tell. You did have to point it out, but now, but I did notice. What did I do? You got a more of a middle part. The more middle part. I parted. I parted my hair in the middle so I can see more like middle part club. Come on over. We have a ball, and we're never going back to the side part. It's just the way that it is. So you'll enjoy it. You'll love our club. Middle people unite. And uh it's the way it is. And it just makes you look younger, in my opinion. So you look great. I love it. Does it actually look like it's in the middle? It's middler. It's more middler than side. But you're not, you didn't nail it, but you got so close. I did. But it takes time. It takes time to train your hair to go in the middle. Well, I think it just takes time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I think the problem, even though a lot about us is exactly alike, that is not. I've got some, what do you call those? What do you call those? Uh um cowlics. There you go. Callix that don't let me. That's one thing that's different about us, is where my cowlics are versus where your cowlics are.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And I've had years of of forcing my hair into submission to do what I want it to do. So you you gotta you gotta work at it. You gotta you gotta spend some time. I've tried. I have always overcarried. No, I always over care my whole life. I'm a hair, even in like elementary school and junior high, I was like in the bathroom trying to get my hair to do something I didn't do.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

But I felt the shape, you know, I felt the hair shape. Always most of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

And I know we've well, I apologize. I did not mean to shame you, but over the years, and I think people have we've talked about this on other podcasts. I would, I'm like the hair person in our family. I was always put somebody knocking on my door. Would you braid my hair? Would you fix my hair to this day? My whole life. So I just I wear it like a badge of honor. It's you it's what I do. Yeah, I didn't I didn't inherit that gift.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

I think you have to care.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Well, you always look great.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

You know, you always two hours, a lot of hairspray, and like three different hair machines. Did I just call them hair machines?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And I hair machines. Oh my god. And I love your jacket. Do you now? That jacket looks familiar. You do. I do. I like that jacket. I feel like I have the same jacket. I feel like we have a lot of the same clothes, whether we mean to. If you're gonna like this jacket, Martha, tell everyone. Tell them. Because I got that jacket. I got that jacket like two months ago, and you saw it on me, and you made your kids buy that for you for Christmas. And I thought that was a great idea. And that's why we can't live in the same city because we have to have I love this jacket. You know, the same clothes. They got it for me. It works out well.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I was hoping it's a great jacket that you did not wear it today.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

This close. I I think I wore it on another one. So, but no, I came very close to grabbing it. And I thought, no, let me just, you know, you honestly, it is cold here in Florida. I mean, people across the nation are laughing, like, what do you mean cold? It's cold. But for us, it is cold. So I got I got about four or five days a year I get to wear this obnoxiously green sweater. And today is one of those days, and so I'm wearing it on my person and I'm sweating inside, but I'm cold outside. So that's the way it is in Florida.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

I like it. It looks great, and I love this jacket. Thank you for letting me buy one just like yours. And people ask us all the time do we dress alike accidentally? And we do. We did yesterday, remember? We were on a Zoom call together, and we had I remember.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

And we were wearing the same uh burgundy hoodie with a white shirt underneath. What? I know in the world. I just woke up and went, I didn't do it at Burgundy.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

You would think that this would not surprise us anymore at this point in our lives. We've been twins all our lives, and yet we still are surprised. We go, hey, we should just expect it.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I know. Isn't that funny? We it just is what it is. We should, I mean, we we probably could coordinate a little bit better, but I don't think it's that deep. Um but yeah, and then we trade clothes sometimes too. I like trading clothes. You know, you give me some, I give you some of your mine, you give me some, and then we just can't forget to switch them out. And that like, where is that track? Oh, that's right. I've loaned it out to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Well, we will be sisters, we will be sisters first stealing each other's clothes and not returning them. And what is a sister without hijacking some clothes from each other?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

And no matter how mad I would get at you or Marveline, nobody cares. Like I would say, that's my shirt. I just got that shirt. And they're like, Yeah, well, that is the way it is. Sisters override all of that. We don't have any empathy for you, we don't have to ask permission. That's what sisterhood's all about. You just have two daughters. I have three.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

And I'm telling you, every week or so, they'll come in and one of them will say, That's my shirt. And the one wearing it will go, Yeah, I know. And the one that owns it says, Why are you wearing it? And the response that kind of shuts it down is every time I know it's yours, can I just wear it today? Well, it's already on your back. Yeah. It's already on you. It's already on it. So, and then, yes, but ask me next time. There's that's never gonna happen. There's never gonna be a world. Nah, I'm not gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

No, if it's your if it's there and you're not wearing I'm wearing it. That's right. Too bad for you. I had sisters. That is definitely sisters, and I kind of like it. And then what I like about it is that is people don't really like as sisters and family members, you might get upset, but you don't get offended. You don't carry it. You don't like you shouldn't, or most sisters don't. You don't carry it into, you know, the next year, the next year, or hold it, or harbor it, or you know, keep a list of all the things you did wrong. You don't anytime I talk to people, well, they'll you know, they'll start telling me about sibling rivalry or hurt, you know, my mother never loved me as much as she loved my sister. I'm like, we can't be friends because, you know, I even if that's true, you're grown. You know what I'm saying? Like, boy, that's the truth.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

You are a grown adult. And I let's move on. Having sisters or brothers having brothers helps you be a different person. You yours, what's yours is not yours. Yeah. And you kind of know it. You wish it was, but it's not. But being twins, it's another level of that. Because every time we'd go to a restaurant, we'd have to split a plate. We've oh my god, always split to share from the beginning. So when I married Steve, I would try to get him to share stuff with me. It was so it was in my DNA. And he would look at me like, we shouldn't have married Italian. Italian men do not share their food.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

No, my husband just came in five minutes ago and said, Hey, there's two pieces of leftover pizza from last night. There's a big piece and a little piece. Which one do you want? Like, I you think I'm gonna ask for the big piece? I'm at this is a setup. Like, I'm not even gonna just save me a piece. You eat the one you want. Save me a piece. Listen, it's yeah, they don't share well.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Because we both married Italians for people who don't know. Why? I don't know, but we did. God saw something. I don't know what he saw, but he saw something. Um, we'll go to an Italian restaurant and we'll bring home leftovers. And at an Italian restaurant, you always order a pie, a pizza pie, on top of your food. So he he gets chicken parm, we did that. And you just get a pepperoni pizza.

unknown 8:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

You're not gonna eat it. Take it home, but you just get it. You're gonna have it tomorrow. But we'll get home and we'll have leftovers, and we'll tell the kids or whoever's there, hey, there's leftovers, and he will always yell, don't touch the pizza. You can have anything else, but do not touch this this pie.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

These both of our husbands love Jesus, they are spirit-filled, they're both pastors, like they are both people, they lead uh congregations, but when it comes to pizza, they are not sanctified. They're they are not, and my husband's the same way. Like, here's what's so funny. We went out to eat last night. We did the same thing. We got the fish because we feel like, hey, you know, we're eat light, and then we get a pizza. It was so good. And we take a couple of pieces home. We get home, and the girls were at my house that were working in the studio, and they had ordered from another pizza place, my husband's favorite pizza, the big thick pizza. He went upstairs and saw empty pizza boxes, came downstairs and went, I cannot believe they would not think of us. Like, we're like they should have ordered, ordered more pizza. I said, We just brought pizza home from the store. Like, what I know it, but that and then this morning when he realized, I said, Well, I thought there was a lot more pizza left over. When he realized that they did order extra and they had already put in the refrigerator, he didn't see it. The smile, the beaming, the joy. It was like, I so I love my girls. I love my, they're so sweet. I'm like, they just got extra pizza. Oh my god. But that just makes this day. No, it doesn't take a lot. Men are so simple. It doesn't take a lot. Well, they're not stupid, they are simple.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

When we jump on the phone every day and we talk, this is how we talk. We talk about the stupid stuff that our husbands we love so much, too. And then we'll pivot into a very serious conversation. So I think we need to take our listeners on that journey and uh go from pizza to this is how we do church problems.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, and let me make sure I don't have flyaways because for the for the serious conversation, I don't want anybody any distraction. Hey, your part is perfect. Bam! I'm telling you, I got it down. It's like a measuring thing. Yeah, it's just I'll help you. I'll come to Miami, I'll help you. Um get your part right.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, on a serious note, we were talking earlier about what's going on right now this week, um, at Bethel. And um it's I mean, it's pretty widespread. I've gotten people that have reached out to me that are not in the charismatic movement and they're they're seeing it, they're reading about it, they're diving deep, and they're not even in our movement, but it's affected them and they want to see how it's re you know, giving their opinion and or asking what ours is. Right. And I think it's so incredible that we've seen in the last few years what's happened to Hillsong, um what's happened to Gateway, these large, the largest ministries in the world, and uh let's just say in the United States, yeah, that have completely been imploded from the inside out. Not from the outside in. It started inside. And um, Bethel is near and dear to home because we were both raised in the charismatic movement in the prophetic. Um, you've had prophetic words spoken over you.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Oh, yes. Yes, I've sp spoken prophetic words over people many times. And and many that, you know, I've years later, people would say that was so spot on. You prophesied, you know, uh a business, or you prophesied something specific, and everything you said, you know, came true, or you prophesied that, you know, I my womb was gonna, you know, be healed and I would have children. And the, you know, six weeks later I was pregnant, and here's the baby. And it, you know what I mean? Like you've had that same experience too. And so it's a it's an incredible gift that God's given us, but it's we gotta be really discerning, really discerning in this day and age more than ever I, along with our husbands, because we're all in ministry, we're pastors.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I care right now, and where I pray and I seek God and I pray for, are some of the people that were really harmed by false doctrine and false prophecies more than I care about just bringing that person down or how Bill, how Bill Johnson's responding. I mean, that's important. I'm not saying that's not important, but I feel like to the body, and even like to our church, what I want to say to them is what do you do with the word you got that either you followed or you or it impacted you so deeply you believed was God? What do you do with that?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

And I'll give you my own personal experience. You know this story, but I'll tell it briefly. Back years ago, we were in, gosh, this is 30 years ago, we were in one of the most pivotal and painful times of our ministry. And um, a prophetic voice came into our lives. She was incredible. I mean, the gift on her was absolutely accurate. She came, this there was no Instagram. Um, maybe we, I don't even think we had websites back then.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

So how she would have known there was no, there was no internet, barely internet. We barely had computers.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

So unless she was really good at getting information, um, it was pretty incredible because her flight was delayed. She was coming in to speak at one of our women's conferences. Her flight was delayed, and we were going through one of the most traumatic, dark moments. We were in it at the time, and decided to go on with the conference and bring her in. Never said a word to anybody. The church people didn't know what was going on, but we said, We're going on with the show, we're gonna have this conference. And she walked in the door. Now her flight was late, so we had to start the service without her. So she didn't get to meet any of us. She walks in, takes the mic, gets up, starts to lead it, didn't catch the worship. She wasn't talking to anybody except the driver. She got up and didn't say um call out names or anything, but she did say she called out my sister-in-law's name, which is a very unusual name. And but just by her first name. Right. And I remember saying to her later, and her prophecy was so incredible, but it was it was healing. It didn't bring attention to her. It was just a settling and a uh directing the ship to hear from God. It was so powerful. And every one of her prophecies were edifying and not, it didn't bring glory to her. So I just remember the power of that moment. She's prophesied, and you know, all my kids, she prophesied a big ministry direction for Steve and I. And then that was it. And we didn't keep embracing the prophetic voice because you don't need it right every six months. You shouldn't. And I think that's the dangers. But but even in your own life, you've had some encounters like that.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I've had with the same, the same prophetic voice spoke into my life. She was incredible. And I remember Nicole was a tiny baby, and I was in Orlando, I was um attending at Channel 55. They would bring her in a lot to speak. And so they would bring um in to they would use one of their studios and they would record it and they would broadcast it on the Christian television station here. And so I heard about her and I went, you know, this is before anything God really began to open any doors for me. I was just a young mom, um, just trying to find my way, serving at a church. And I remember I came and I was uh nursing Nicole, and she was just like a few weeks old. And so I was sitting in the room with all the other ladies, and she started to make a little noise, so I had to leave and go in another room. So they put me like in this little closet with a with a chair. And I remember thinking, okay, I'm not gonna get a word. I'm not gonna get a prophetic word because I'm not in the room and here I am, and you start feeling like I'm gonna miss out. And I heard the Holy Spirit say, I can find you anywhere. You don't have to be in any proximity of anybody, and I can give you a word. And within a few seconds, somebody was knocking on the door saying, Hey, this lady has a word. She said she's looking for the young girl with the baby and gave me a word. I walked in and she said, The Holy Spirit is speaking and just literally prophesied every door that's open for me. I mean, it was broad, but it was like, you will stand on stages, you will sing for nations, you will sing for kings, you will write songs. And I'm somebody had to take the baby out of my arms because it was just such an overwhelming moment. And I've had to learn over the years, even with all that, because that was a little bit of a seed of a desire that God began to give me greater vision for what's possible. Here's what I've I'm grateful at the time for a pastor who would say, who would expose us to teachers that would say, prophecy, it's what's possible. It's what's possible, but you have to cooperate with it, but you have to be discerning. And it's on God to make those things happen. If somebody prophesies some big massive uh event or some big massive success, that's not on you to make happen. It's on you to just keep obeying God, keep taking the steps. But we've got to be so careful. And yes, that was great. That was awesome, but I don't live my life by prophecy and I'm grateful for it and it and it encourages me, but I still got to put the work in. I I still have to do the hard stuff and stay faithful and stay obedient. And then God makes up the difference. But I think it's so easy, even in the charismatic movement that we've been exposed to. Thank God we've had parents and family members and people that were way more discerning than we were at the time, and would help God, like, okay, that's great. That's great. Praise God. We love the word. That's great. But measure it against the word. Don't be emotionally manipulated, which can happen so easily.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Steve and I were only a few years married and in Lakeland, and we're not going to name any names, but there was that big outpouring of laughter in church that people were just hysterically laughing, falling over and laughing. And hearing about it, it would just be so beautiful because we're thinking, man, the world needs to laugh. I mean, of course, laughter is the best medicine. And yeah, and and people need to be healed. And so we decided, because nothing was funny when at that season in our lives, it we were going through a not funny season in ministry. So we thought, well, very serious. Yeah, very serious. So we're like, well, let's go and let's take Steve's mom and dad and let's go and let the Holy Spirit touch us and be in that environment and let's get that overflow. We go and Martha, there was probably five to seven thousand people in this auditorium. I'm not kidding. And because of who my father-in-law was, they brought us down to the front. Were you guys with us for that? I don't remember. I I know we went. We went a few times, a couple times, so I don't remember. Well, this is the one and only time we went. We were hurting. We needed direction. If we if anybody needed to hear from God, yes, we did. And we went and sat on like the second row, and all of a sudden it broke out, and people just started laughing, it started catching fire, it was contagious, everyone's just falling out of the pews, and we, I'm not kidding you, we're sitting there, we're crying. We never got that overflow. Yeah, and when it was over, right, we were driving home, and of course, the first question is to question your own ability to get it. How come I didn't get it? How come we didn't get it? We need it, why didn't we get it? And we got really good counsel from some good, healthy, wise people that told us first of all, don't follow signs. We don't follow signs. Believers do not follow signs, signs follow believers. No, so if you went just to get laughter, you're following signs. And you don't need to do that. Doesn't mean it's real, not real. It could be real for people, not real for others. But I haven't called you to that to judge it, to criticize it. Right. Just come out from among that. And I can give you the joy that you need. And the truth is, we took so much away from that, Martha. And honestly, we never, when we'd hear about the Azusa Street revival and the Brownsville revival, we heard about all these revivals. Steve and I would just always say, Man, we'd love to go and be in that. But if God's not calling it to it, calling us to it and we don't need it, wisdom says, don't go, stay out of that atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Right. Right. And I I agree with that. I think we have to be so discerning. And here's the thing: God is good and he's all powerful, and he is the one who gives you every gift, every anointing. He's the one who even allows you to go through the difficult seasons where you might be experiencing a season of overflow and joy and favor that's coming like crazy. I'm over here going, God, hello. You know, it's getting worse over here for me and over here. Like God is our father. He deals with us differently in different seasons of our lives. So I I've been to some of those events. I remember I went to one, and you know, I'm just one of those sponges. I'm like, you know, I'm Open. I don't really, it doesn't really go through my my mind first. Like I let my emotions lead a little bit, maybe not as much anymore, but when I was younger. So I remember one time I had that experience where I just laugh my head off. But I think a lot of it was that everybody was laughing. You know, I and I realize with my daughter, Nicole, she is the biggest laugher in our family. Like if it's kind of makes me chuckle, she's fallen over laughing. That's just how she is. The biggest laugh. So whenever you're watching something, it's funnier when you watch it with her, just because she gets tickled more. You know, that's just how she's wired. And she's got this big loud laugh, and you either love it or you don't. I love it. And when she moved out, we realized, wow, the house is so quiet. But, you know, I think there is something to be said that there is kind of like a human behavior, the instinct of you're laughing. So now I'm laughing just because you're laughing. You know, so I don't know how much of that was anointing or much of that was something that was real from God. I don't, I, I don't, I don't know. I know a lot of it was extra, a lot of it was just too much because it doesn't exist anymore. It's gone. And even the the big churches where it was birthed. And I think younger people need to understand that if you're searching, you're seeking, you want more, you want this big emotional experience. Praise God. I love it all. I love whatever God has. I want it all. But we got to be careful because we came out of that movement. And it's important that we don't um maybe throw everything away because I've seen people say, Oh, I finally got delivered from that. I didn't get delivered from it, but God used it. And now with more time in the word, more maturity, more dealing with people and growing, I've been able to say, I know where to put that. It's not all bad. I don't throw it all out. I wasn't delivered from anything. Right. I know where to put it, I know how to manage it and navigate through it.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Can kill your discernment. And if you're desperate, if you are desperate to need a word from God, you've already started wrong. Yes. You have a word, it's called the word. And the the, you know, Martha, we we were raised with pastors and evangelists laying hands on you, and everybody falls out under the power, and and pastors throw in their jackets or a evangelists throwing and everybody going out. Are there impartations of healing that happen? Yes. Is that person on the platform responsible for that healing? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It is God who heals. It is not man who heals. It is God who who sends the fire, it is the Spirit of God. That's right. And the Bible says, Paul said, We have not come to you with enticing words of men's wisdom, but with the power and the demonstration of the Holy Ghost. What is the power and the demonstration? That's right. Well, if we think the power of the demonstration is always this big manifestation of Jesus' picture somewhere shadowy on the wall, we went through that, where the whole church freaked out because he saw his face on the wall, or everyone's falling out under the power. Yeah, if we're not careful, careful, right? We could, with a lack of wisdom, create an environment where it stirs up spirits that are not godly. And it's flesh. That's very true. So when I watched, when I watched, and I did, I went fell into the rabbit hole deep with this situation with Bethel because I wanted to know. I wanted to know. Right. And you and I have had our perspective, just being honest, about certain internships and ministry schools that we have not felt not a piece about, but we haven't felt a release to send our kids. And part of that is because we've raised them and trained them in the doctrine that we believe based on the word of God and where the charismatic crazy gets a little too much, that we don't want to have to overexplain. Because I I think anything you have to over-explain is not God. If you have to retrain, over-explain, the Holy Spirit doesn't really need our help that much. So we've just kind of said no to certain environments. That's not been our wheelhouse, it's not been our tribe. But we also love some of the things that have come out of Bethel and we've appreciated it, not judged it. We leave it to the Lord. This is heartbreaking. Right. This is the charismatic movement that really gone too far without the right accountability and checks and balances. And what I love about their response is they're owning it, they're repentant, they see it, they're saying all the right things. But it's it's almost beyond repair.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

How do you get your credibility back? I I well, and you know, Mary, I think what we do is that our job is to really learn from this. I didn't watch the whole video that Mike Wingern put out. I saw clips and I think I watched part of Ruslan who was doing like commentary on it. I just haven't had time to watch it all. And but I did watch a video. It's interesting that you said a minute ago about we had to have discernment about where our kids went to school, what should we, you know, uh champion for them going away to internships. It just never felt right. Um, and nothing bad about those places, it just didn't feel it didn't, it didn't pass just that feeling of it was it wasn't practical. It didn't seem like that was wise. And even though there were things our kids wanted to go to and they did go out for events and got blessed, but we've taught our kids discernment. We've taught our kids not to just fall into the emotion and not to be so desperate for something. And then they go out and they discern more than I did. They were a little bit more like, it's great, the music, but there's something, there's a little, so thank God, even when they were teenagers. But you, when you were talking about discerning, helping our children and then other children discern, other families, I did watch a video of a man who said, I was a victim of Sean Boltz. It was a video that he put out, and of, but he spoke very, and I watched that was about an hour and a half, and he spoke very highly of Bill Johnson and the leaders there. They were incredible, but it was the people that they would bring around them and that they lacked discernment there. And one was Sean Boltz, and he goes on to describe what happened and how he kind of fell into sin and fell into some things, and it was just very hard to watch. But he said something, Mary, that struck me. And it goes back to here's how we hear, we hear through the word of God. We have to be people of principle. We're not moved by pressure, we're not moved by feeling, we're not moved by by or promotion. We are people of principle. And he said this. He said this, and this was all I needed to hear. He said, he was very soft-spoken, very, you know, kind of quiet. You could tell he was someone who was easily led. He said, I wanted to go to Bethel to the to the college, and my dad did not want me to go. He said, I snuck out in the middle of the night to go. And when he said that, because he was basically saying what I think was that his dad was not a believer, and that his father just did not think it was time. There was other things he should have been focused on that that was not. And he said, I went and I really enjoyed my time at the school, but that's how he met Sean. And when that made my ears perk up because that had nothing to do with the leadership of Bethel. That had nothing to do. That was somebody that chose not to hear and be led by and with principle. That's right. I uh uh and okay, so here's the thing. And when I heard that, I was sharing, I had a bunch of young people at my house and they were talking about it yesterday. And I shared the same story. I said, guys, this shows you we've got to be so careful. There's a principle here. Okay, well, my mom and dad are crazy and they don't let me do anything and they say no to everything. Well, if it's God, give them another six months, give them another year. If you're dating somebody and they're not for it, stay sweet, stay a servant. Even if your family's not a believer, stay submissive. There's a principle that, yes, God will honor obedience. God, I don't want to miss you by trying to force something that I want. So until my family's on board, I trust that God can change their hearts and He's gonna do that when I stay submissive. And to me, that was the crack. That's where, that's where the open door, and you can even be in the most anointed place. But if it's not the place that God has told you to be and you're uh violating principle to be there, you you're in a dangerous place. They're not dangerous, yeah, but you're outside of the covering. I know that's kind of serious, but okay, but there's something really teachable about that.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Well, it there is, because we've all got to take personal responsibility. However, there's two things that can be true at one time. He can be walking in with a seat of rebellion into an environment that isn't as safe as he thinks it is. And because he's got a seat of rebellion, he can't discern for himself because he was there under the wrong pretenses. And that's why it's so important. Right. And you're so emotionally driven. Yes. Yes. And you he he I watched some of that. He had been given a prophecy before, you'll write 50 books before you're 50. Well, of course, now that's going to set you up to try to find the path to write for 50 books. So that's not blaming anybody. That's all of us taking personal responsibility. Now, on the on the establishment side, on the leader side, the response has been beautiful and very repentant. I watched the whole Sunday service. I watched how those guys spoke and and how they were touched and they cried, they were broken, how they had not seen it before, now they see it. Here's what we need to take away from that. Men of God are human too, and they miss it too. Yes. And we don't put our hope in the arm of flesh, we put our trust in God. And every day, especially along the journey of growing in the Lord, we're not at Candyland. This is not Disney for Christians.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

This is not a safe house. The truth is we are we are spiritually at a higher risk. We have to be more discerning because there will be sheep in wolves' clothing. Where are they gonna go? Where are the I'm sorry, wolves in sheep's clothing? Well, where are they going? They're not going to the club. Yeah. They're all wolves. Yeah. They're going to the church. So more than anyone. Well, here's what we have the Bible says. Discerning. Yes, read it. Read it. So what did the Bible say?

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Okay, guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life. When you stop guarding your heart, that's when manipulation can come in. When you're emotional, you're easily manipulated. Romans 16, 18 says, by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the minds of naive people. So manipulation will often sound like spiritual. It'll sound like flattery. And this is where we have to be discerning. Good. I appreciate the prophetic word. It should always confirm what God has already spoken to you. If not, you should kind of look back and go, uh-huh. I mean, I'm telling you, I have been in the weirdest environments where I don't care what they somebody came in and prophesied I was at this event. I never should have been there. I never should have sang there. I never should have gone. I got tricked into being there. This was several years ago. I was told it was this church that had been thriving and going for all these years. They invited this prophetic young speaker to come that I did not know was going to be there, that I had already said I don't want to be in the room with them at all. I do not want to be a partner with anything they're doing. They show up, they're there. And then I find out that the pastor that had just, that was their first service, and they brought in these people to help build their church. Well, already that's off. Already that's not even the way you build a church, in my opinion. And so the prophet sees me and I've got a bullseye like prophesy over me on my forehead and starts prophesying buildings and money and somebody with big deep pockets is gonna come. And I'm like, uh-huh. Well, great, whatever. You know, I don't I don't need you to tell me that. God's gonna do that. Now, praise God, if that was somebody that I respected and honored, I'd go, look at what God did. That would have given me a really good, like, breath of fresh air. Like that would have encouraged me to keep going, but it doesn't change anything. God's gonna do that when God's gonna do it. No, and it's up to me to make sure that I'm not being manipulated by somebody that's a good, that's a smooth talker. I mean, I remember having people come in that had this gift of prophecy and they'd get in to start telling you your address. Well, I already know my address. Yeah. I know thank you. How is that? Why do I need to know my name? That's manipulation. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

I well, I already know so I already know where I live, I already know my numbers. It sounds so simple, but yet you're in that environment and you can get caught up in a spirit. Well, I let me tell you, when I was at the tail end of being on the road traveling, John and Jackie, who always traveled with me, husband and wife, we went to this church. I'm not gonna say where, I'm not gonna name names. Um, but this is the one part about this whole situation that has always disturbed Steve and I from the beginning. No one warns other ministers about bad ministries. And that's wrong. Yes. That's wrong. So true. Okay. No one does what the Bible says, mark those. Okay. We and that's what's gotten this problem to reach such a high pivotal place because no one actually spoke out. Okay, so we get we pull into this church from the parking lot. The three of us discerned don't park, don't get out of the car. Let's say you got lost, don't come to this church. Couldn't do it, walked in. It was as ratchet, as weird, as manipulative. We could feel the spirit, it was thick. Well, I felt responsible for Jackie and Jonathan. They go to my church, they're a young couple, sure. And I'm their pastor, and they travel with me on the road. And the shepherd protective nature just rose up in me. So I sang my three songs, sat down, and the pastor decided he was just gonna start prophesying. And when I tell you, I felt like I was gonna do spiritual karate. I'm not even kidding. If you come over here, I will karate chop you. That's how I felt. And I am a very gracious go with it, don't say nothing, don't create conflict. But Martha, everything in me said, if he comes over here, I'm walking out. Now I walked out of probably three places that I was brought in on, and I walked out and said, I will not be here. I will not be associated, I don't say my name, I don't care. I will not be associated with manipulation and Jezebel in the house. I'm out. Right. And you know, your brother-in-law, Steve, he he he's the he's the one that will call out the Jezebel publicly. He has no problem. Right. So we go to this church and the guy starts prophesying. And I see him coming. He's prophesying there's a person in a wheelchair right next to us, a young girl. He's not even looking at her. And he's going to people with glasses, going, take your glasses off. God wants to heal you. God wants to heal you. God wants to heal you. Well, Jackie and Jonathan both had glasses, and this girl's sitting right next to us, and he's ignoring her. You're not gonna heal the girl in the wheelchair? You're gonna pray for her? As he started walking, getting closer, I said to Jackie, I want you to go to the bookstore, pack up our stuff, and meet me. Don't come back in. Meet me in the car. And Martha, we walked out. And I said, and we tell that story all the time. Good for you. Because I said, I am, I don't care what you say about me, I'll come off the road. I don't need your reputation. I need to protect my reputation. And I need to make sure that my spirit is protected. And I did that probably three times. Right. Maybe four in all the years that I was on the road in ministry. Because I don't want that, is yeah, don't come nigh my dwelling place. I I'm that is just not something I'm gonna stand for, tolerate.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

No. Well, Satan masquerades as an angel of light. So we need to be so aware. We need to be so the Bible says in Colossians, see to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy. Love never tries to capture you. Control will try to capture you. I remember one time John Bevere said years ago, you can tell the difference between someone's gifting and the anointing on their life. And if they're gifted, it makes you want to know more about that person. But if they're anointed, their gift makes you want to know more about Jesus. And that has always stayed with me. So when I'm listening to somebody that's really talented, really anointed, I'm thinking, do I want to Google this person or do I want to read scripture more? That really is really valid because there are people that I'll I'll hear minister and prophesy, and I'm like, they have not quit quoting scripture. Like everything they're saying has a scripture that validates what they're saying. And for years, and I honestly, Mary, I think our generation and the older generation really kind of missed it here because we didn't call out these these um these issues. We didn't we didn't we we didn't call out the false prophets. We didn't say that's not according to scripture, and we didn't really focus more on souls and salvations like we do in this season. And I think what we've we've gotten so far away. I mean, I don't remember everybody, anybody ever teaching me about you know why we believe what we believe. We just believed it, which is great, which is, you know, we had encounters with God, but I think where God's moving us to a place of maturity, discernment, wisdom that we don't get caught up. And I think what happens is imagine you could imagine this. Our church is still very small, but your church is so large. And when people start coming in and preaching and ministering and moving in their gift, it's it can be a very difficult situation as the pastor because they've operated in their gifting. They've maybe stirred up a lot of questions. People like it, people don't. And now they're gone, and you're having to kind of like navigate through all of the mess maybe that they made. And then it makes you think you start thinking, well, I'm the pastor, they're gonna think less of me if I say something public. And then that's where the breakdown begins. And we don't take the stand and really lead and shepherd well.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And I think that's it right there. We are called to shepherd and protect the sheep at all costs. That's our job as pastors. Well, when we've had people, and you know, we have a handful of guests that we're just very careful, but we vet, we call, hey, what do you know about this person? What's their reputation? What follows them? And we just don't embrace a lot of people. But when we've had, and I can count on maybe three fingers how many times we've had somebody that we thought, no, they're not for us. I let me just tell you this another big name that I will not call because if I said it, everybody would know it. My husband rebuked and he came out with one of the biggest, most high profile falls. And Steve rebuked him in our office, right over there. Okay, wow. He had no problem. This was when he was at the height of his popularity, this this evangelist, at the height of his popularity, and Steve picked up his bad spirit. He wasn't with us 30 minutes, and Steve picked it up and rebuked him. Yep. And we apologize to our people after. If even if they don't, even if they don't know, if we've had someone that was didn't follow um through submission our leadership, and they tried to capitalize on our church people to sell them something after they'd left. We call the people and we go, listen, that's not what we're about. He they didn't have any right to come to our church and try to get your finances on the side with what they're doing, and we tell the church because we're gonna protect the sheep. Now, I want to say this because I know we've only got a couple of more minutes, but I want to say this. This is in no way saying that Bethel, Bethel School, uh, the music there at Bethel, that we are putting a black X on it. We are not, we love that ministry. We still receive from that ministry this place of repentance that they're in, quite frankly, if we learn from it, if we mature, you said that earlier. This is good for the whole body. It's really good for us. Yes. Um we've all gotta take a humble pill here and know as leaders that we can miss it too. Yes. They were going through hell. Oh, yeah. And isn't that just how the devil does? He'll use your weak moments and sift you like we you don't even see it. So we love Bill Johnson. We love that ministry that hasn't changed. We think about the people that are falling for false prophets. You better get the ability to discern from the Holy Spirit. Get in a good, healthy, principled church with a simple pastor that's not trying to be famous. Start there and do. Don't get in a line for healing that wraps around the building or get in a line for a word that wraps around the building if you're not getting in a line to go to church on a Sunday morning to serve. Come on. So it's as much on us teaching our people because if they don't know, we haven't taught them as it is on the prophetic and the prophets to give us a word that makes us feel good about the situation we're in or to make us feel like God is more real. We don't need them to tell us God is real. We've got to find that for ourselves. That's my sermon, that's my preach. I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I I believe it. And I you've stayed you and Steve stay in a principled mindset, and it's helped me so much over the years, too, to go back to wait a second, don't be just emotionally moved. But I will say this one thing I've learned about the prophetic people that operate in the prophetic gift, um, Bill Johnson is unbelievable. I mean, some of the revelation that he has on worship is unmatched. You're not gonna touch it. I mean, he just has this knowledge of kingdom and heaven and the word and worship that's beautiful. And we can't throw all that out. But I've learned that with every gift, like you and I, we're we have different personalities, but we're very much the same. You know, our personalities are the same. And we have weak sides to our personality and strengths to our personality. Everybody does. There's a strong side of your personality, but there's a weak side. And it's the same thing with spiritual gifts. That's right. Believe it or not, you can be very, but the natural side of the prophetic gift sometimes can be naive because you have to be in a place. If you're going to be prophetic, you have to be in a place where you are so submitted to God, you're like a little child. You're like a little kid who hears it and is is willing to jump, take a leap, not be afraid, to speak it, to say it. And so there has to be kind of a disconnect from your natural mind that happens to really flow in that gift. People can argue with me all day long. I don't care. I know what I'm talking about. Whatever. Say whatever you want to say. That's just really, really true. There are that with that gift, but that also, if it's not always submitted to the Holy Spirit and stay in principle, you can, that's where the downside is. That's what the downside is. It leaves you very vulnerable and open again to naive people. We think someone that's that gifted, that anointed, that successful would have already had, you know, the spiritual ability and uh cognition to be able to spot the devil everywhere. Well, we don't. We you don't. This is why the Bible tells us to pray for our leaders, because with every level, the enemy just keeps fighting, keeps pushing, they're on the front line. So, but it's also our job as believers to test every spirit. I tell our people, just because I'm saying it, you that's right, you go to the word, you know the word for yourself. Know the word for yourself. Don't be led by emotional voices, even if they're good. There's a lady in our church, she just came two months ago, got radically saved, delivered, filled. I mean, God is doing something just in her. She get she gave up, you know, some weed that she was smoking after all these years. She's like, I'm gonna go. And now, you know, I'm I'm really working with her because it's so easy now. She's hearing from God, she's more clear. God's bringing people into her life. She's on this spiritual awakening that's I'm jealous because it's like the new believer awakening, you know, Christmas every day. But I also have to prepare her. Well, just because you're in that state, the enemy knows what to throw at you. He knows how to derail you. And we got to be careful. Zone into one voice, hear a voice, a shepherd's voice, and let them lead you. And then get in the word every day. Get in the word and develop your discernment. Obey that voice.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Walk out of rooms and obey it when God tells you to. Leave. Yeah. Trust God. I think that's um that's the takeaway from all of this. Lean into God. Don't turn from God, don't deconstruct because of a false prophet. That that God is God. Men are men. And this isn't God's fault. This is man's fault. Don't take it out on God because men did something stupid. But I I I think this is definitely a conversation we could just keep talking and keep talking and keep talking. We do have a lot to say. We need to jump back on here and talk about this again, I think, Martha, because this is definitely where the younger generation needs to hear. Um, this isn't news. Yes, the enemy sets this trap, and we need to pray for Bethel and love them and pray for them and seek God for ourselves. Well, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

I love this conversation. I think I think we should, I love it too. I think we should just continue. Why don't we end with praying for them for it? Is that can we do that? Yeah, Lord, we we just end this time of our conversation, Lord, and we just lift up Bethel to you, uh Pastor Bill Johnson, and all of those pastors and leaders there, we are so thankful for the the absolute gold that we have been given because of that ministry through music, through the word, through the anointing, what we've experienced. Yes, they are a gift to the body of Christ. And the enemy would do nothing more. He would love nothing more to completely destroy that ministry. But I thank you, Father, that even in this time that they're being sifted, they're going through a journey, a trial. God, you are bringing them to a place of repentance so that there can be hope, so that there can be restoration. And I thank you that the enemy is not going to destroy that ministry, but God, your hand is on it and we're gonna learn from it. You're gonna take us into a new place of understanding and revelation of how we are to conduct ourselves and lead others. And I thank you, Father, that your anointing is on them. The greatest songs are still yet to come out of that ministry, the greatest revelation. We thank you that your hand is on it. And whatever the enemy is doing to try to kill and steal and destroy, God, whatever you can do to protect them, I thank you, Lord, that your protection is on them and they'll come out of this. They'll come out of this stronger and greater and more uh more influential, more relevant than ever before. In Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. I love that. Well, this was a great conversation. I think people need to hear more of this. You're right. Yep, I do too.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Well, thank you guys for listening to the Mary Martha podcast. Stay tuned. There's a whole lot more coming up. I love you, sister. I love you too.